It is as hard/harder than chrome, has a lower friction coefficient which gives slightly higher velocities, and is much more corrosion resistant in salt spray tests. Joined: Aug 24, 2008 Messages: 1,231. How salt bath nitriding works. At this time, I am not suggesting having Chrome lined bores done. I sold that gun and put my Glock 34 in my trunk. A. This is comparable to the melonite process utilised on a lot of military barrels to prolong barrel lifetime. Besides, Google is our friend! I have done stainless, and chrome moly, one thing I have noticed is that the process will allow to use Chrome Moly where manufacturers would ordinarily use stainless. I would like to reach both of you about doing some finish work... Perhaps a hint about where you work, so we could track you down by phone? The process starts with a standard salt bath nitrocarburizing cycle, which produces a layer of ε iron nitride. I was a project manager for a manufacturing facility - and we wanted "Tenifer"-like qualities applied to some steel parts - and after tracking down the facilities in Europe that apply the Tenifer finish (it is not a Glock exclusive) - those companies told us they couldn't set up shop in the US because the EPA wouldn't allow the Tenifer process to be done here. A. Hi Bob. Just came across these questions regarding Melonite and thought I would shed some light. Mmmmm....smell the vapor coming from that vat of molten sodium cyani..i...... thud! With regard to not using salt bath nitrating, on hammer or button rifled barrels - GLOCK uses salt bath nitrating on hammer forged barrels. Thanks, Edward, but can you quote an EPA reg that says this? Melonite ® Salt Bath Nitriding. Salt bath nitride entails immersing the barrel, and is finished inside and out evenly, in what we commonly call “nitride”. One place on autos where salt bath nitriding is often used is on the piston of those little air springs that hold up hoods and hatchback windows. SPR Barrel Bore Scope Examination at 1000 Rounds with Hard Blue. Is anyone here familiar with austempered ductile iron (ADI)? I had a few long calls with the General Manager, Shade McMillen to gather info before having work done there.. Regarding the salt bath nitriding, it is my understanding that it is applied in excess of 1000 °F. that have been in error. Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015. Salt Bath Nitriding (SBN) also known as Melonite(tm) or Tennifer(tm) is a process that has been used in duty pistols for decades to overcome the shortcomings of chrome lining and parkerizing. But as one person said early on it has a lot to due with the quality standard of who is applying it. A. [SUP] [/SUP] The final matte, non-glare finish meets or exceeds stainless steel specifications, is 85% more corrosion resistant than a hard chrome finish, and is 99.9% salt-water corrosion resistant. Frank....tool and die trade. It is paint, not phosphate. The benefits are not limited to only these attributes, nitriding also offers a lower coefficient of friction. What might be a viable treatment for the exposed metal? Black Nitriding is a chemical process (in a salt bath) that infuses carbon and nitrogen into the metal, and the black color being a byproduct of the saturation of carbon. Regards. Many gun manufacturers are looking at alternatives to this process as base material (i.e 4140) core hardness drops to an unacceptable level 36HRc. The processes are broken up into four main classes: gaseous, salt bath, ion or plasma, or fluidized-bed. Would this perhaps explain why we're seeing the S&W product developing oxidation? 2004 but continuing through 2018. ISONITE® Salt Bath Nitdriding ISONITE® (per SAE AMS 2755) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitriding process, also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. Nitride VS Cerakote. Providing consistent high quality products and services to our customers at competitive prices, while being in strict compliance with all environmental, safety and health regulations. You dont want to do this to a barrel you have all ready fired a few hundred rounds out of, if the barrel has any "fire cracking" in the bore, this process can make it worse. A. I would really like to hear from someone at Kolene or someone in the firearms industry who can answer Felix' question about the effect the level of heat involved with this finishing process would have on barrels, springs (such as the extractor on a Mauser or Mauser-based action), and other parts which are heat-treated. I would like to know if I can get this gun finished with Melonite or is the Melonite salt bath process something that must be done prior to final assembly before the guns leaves the factory? this process uses a salt-bath process, too. We do OEM work for a great many of the leading Firearms companies, who have set up specific run cycles for their parts and use their own name for the process. The slide of my M&P 9fs is stainless, with some form of phosphor finish applied to it. From what I understand - Tenifer can't be applied in the US because the EPA won't allow it. Start by running a WET patch in the bore when u get it back... "I wouldn't use a good brush it might get trashed" wet the brush push this down the bore this will be stiff as hell for the 1st 5 pass's, you will need to do at least 30 stokes, after the 1st 10, it should have you normal resistance, Run some more wet patchs, they will look like mud when that come out, If you have JB bore paste, this is when you break that out for 20 strokes.. if no JB, us can use flitz or other polish on a patch. Providing consistent high quality products and services to our customers at competitive prices, while being in strict compliance with all environmental, safety and health regulations. "text": "#237afc" He can give you well-informed answers to your questions. It is now standard spec for a lot of custom action builders that I work with to have all their receivers done. It exhibits predictable and repeatable results in the treating of low and medium carbon steels, alloy steels, stainless and austenitic steels, tool and die steels, cast and sintered iron. Two people have said that Melonite is not as good as Tenifer because S&W uses Melonite and their slides have rusted. Q. I recently purchased a S&W 696-1 revolver manufactured around 1998. Filippo. Disclaimer: It's not possible to fully diagnose a finishing problem or the hazards of an operation via these pages. (Sounds like Tenifer.) There’s also TiAlN (Titanium Aluminum Nitride) and others. No rust on the slide or barrel. During these processes, nitrogen, carbon, and small amounts of oxygen are diffused into the surface of the steel, creating an epsilon iron nitride layer (ε - Fe x N). Salt-bath nitriding changes the surface area molecular framework of the metal for about four-eight microns. If you coat bullets with moly or HBN, you will lose 50 to 100fps due to the lubricity.. My before and after FPS test with these barrel dropped 60FPS with the same load... Also, a nice thing is on the bolt, with the RC as hard as 70, it feels like glass on glass.. it really soothed it out.. Free technical forums are resources which everyone must take responsibility for by doing their part; we now had to go back and erase Mark L & Michael V's last names so future readers don't do what you did, and the people who spent their company's advertising dollars here not be lambasted by their bosses for how they spent their company's advertising dollars :-( So neither process is quite the same process as it was in the past. A. Thank you I used the sharp edge of a screw driver and it did not scratch or leave a mark on the surface. Please see new LazyLoad({ Lately he has been doing the job with MMi – Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface of a ferrous part. It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of … Regards, A. As the former engineering Manager of S & W I can tell you that we chose Melonite for several reasons, one being durability and the other that it could be used on both 4140 and 416 stainless. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am saying that we've received countless postings saying "the EPA doesn't allow . Would you nitride/melonite a rifle or cerakote one? Looking deeper into the catalogue, they describe Melonite as "a salt bath nitriding process that leaves a thick corrosion resistant hard surface." are all trademarked types of nitride in use by Glock, Smith & Wesson, etc. Advertisers make possible this free place of camaraderie, fun, & education. According to a graph in the referenced and linked article from Kolene, it looks like there is some small effect to a depth of about 40 microns, but the bulk of the effect pertains to the first 3 or 4 microns. new LazyLoad(); Mission Statement. That is the $64,000 dollar question...that I don't know the answer to. A. I put the M&P in my trunk thinking the finish would endure the weather and humidity. Figure 1: Typical case depths achieved by QPQ ® salt bath nitriding on three representative materials, 1018 mild steel, 4140 alloy steel, and H13 tool steel. My understanding of this salt nitriding acid bath process is that it doesn't translate well to stainless alloys, that it actually weakens their ability to withstand corrosion? We also have a Nickel Boron process Rc=72 Process temp 190'F with a post bake ~700 °F depending on time. The Melonite plus QPQ process looks like it would be an excellent finish for a carbon-steel rifle. Fabulous for bolt carrier groups, actions, and slides. That web page also says that the Tenifer and Melonite process "has undergone continuous development with regard to its regenerability and ecology" (to suit changing times). Also known as Melonite, Salt Bath Nitride (SBN), Tennifer, Quench-Polish-Quench (QPQ) or simply Nitride, this is a heat treating process that creates a case hardened surface by diffusing nitrogen into the metal surface. Can anyone help shed some light on what process Glock uses for the final finish on the slide and barrel ? The process is a surface hardening, corrosion resistance increasing, wear reducing process. This is what the patches looked like coming out.. This removes quite a bit of metal, so I assume it goes thru the Tenifer finish. Q. Since the Melonite process subjects the work piece to temperatures of 580° C (1076° F), and since this is hot enough to alter the crystalline structure of the metal and thus the metal's previous heat treatment, is Melonite safe to apply to actions and barrels that have already been heat treated? But the original German formulation for the "Tenifer" carbonitriding salt bath used 60% sodium cyanide and cyanate and 40% potassium cyanide and cyanate.... That's why the EPA wouldn't let anyone do it here. Clean it GOOD... use a good copper remover like KG12 "the best", If sending a action, bolt, or hand gun, EVERY spring needs removed, the heat will destroy the springs, sights should be removed as well, We at Trutec are no longer doing individual orders. Instead of adding material to the bore (like Chrome lining), Nitride treats the existing steel by imbuing nitrogen into the steel itself. "background": "#fff", Typically this "finish" has better wear resistance than Cerakote. Melonite is the salt bath nitriding treatment used by S&W. How Google uses data when you visit this site. Black Nitride goes by a few names, Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, Melonite, SBN "salt bath nitriding", QCP and Tenifer, that are all names for the same thing, the only difference would be Tenifer, this process is used in Europe with a different cyanide formulation bath "EPA wont allow that in the US". Recently he has been working with MMi - Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. ISONITE® QPQ (per SAE AMS 2753) is a high-performance variety of salt bath nitrocarburizing process. Joel, a past 600-yard Shooter of the Year, is very knowledgeable about both shooting and the nitriding process. True blank sheet designs are rare, few and far between, so they should be treasured when they come along. Would you nitride/melonite a rifle or cerakote one? You will see lower pressures and higher velocity as well with the same loads. Black Nitride goes by a few names, Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, Melonite, SBN "salt bath nitriding", QCP and Tenifer, that are all names for the same thing, the only difference would be Tenifer, this process is used in Europe with a different cyanide formulation bath "EPA wont allow that in the US". Black Nitride. Many gun mfgrs. Melonite is a form of nitriding. See our Line of Nitride BCG's. A. Hi, again, cousin Michael. A. Hi to all, I'm responding to a comment referring to Gaston Glock and his creation. His charge $75 a barrel plus $25.00 shipping fee ground. A fair amount of internet searching have not helped in finding people with experience in having guns refinished with Melonite. this is a video from the History channel. Lap the bore and scrub out the chamber good. How salt bath nitriding works. BENEFITS Thread Status: Not open for further replies. Some of the things I found doing the research.. H&M was started in 1948 and has been family owned since, The do work for the large car companies, GE , NASCAR and a bunch of others listed on their page. A. YOU CAN DOUBLE CHECK MY ANSWER BY SIMPLY TYPING "MELONITE ENCYCLOPEDIA" ON THE GOOGLE SEARCH AND BE ABLE TO LOOK IT UP YOURSELF FOR VERIFICATION. At www.durferrit.com/en/unternehmen/firmengeschichte.htm, Houghton Durferrit -- formerly part of DeGusa, but now a division of H.E.F. I have been told by one manufacturer that the bores go out of round. I tried to go back and edit my old posts about this in order to update them but I can't find them, so I thought I'd start a new thread that would pop up when people are searching about melonite, salt bath nitride, ferritic nitrocarburizing, black nitride or nitriding rifle barrels. If someone knew every fine detail of what some company did, we probably couldn't post it anyway. The added element greatly hardens the steel a few thousandths into the material. Thanks in advance, I first heard abut this a few years ago from this video, Huldra Arms (rifles and uppers with chrome-moly barrels {not stainless}), Superior Barrels with "hard blue" (uppers and barrels) {http://www.superiorbarrels.com/}. Some pics I took today at H&M of some the guns & finish they do.. As far as I can find out, some places in Europe are still using cyanide salts. do not recommend this process on parts such as bolt carrier groups as the original hardness IS affected and micro cracking can occur, but we do process many barrels. Salt bath nitriding is a case hardening process that leaves a fairly thick, corrosion resistant, hard surface. Is this used in any handgun, to anyone's knowledge? The heart of the matter is probably licensing rights rather than technology. are all trademarked types of nitride in use by Glock, Smith & Wesson, etc. When done properly the process infuses the surface of the metal with with a layer of nitrogen and carbon that penetrates the metal surface to a depth of 10 to 20 microns and increases the surface hardness to a Vickers level of 800 to 1500 HV. On time inorganic finish, i 'm responding to a comment referring Gaston! Is best to break it in `` 30 to 60 rounds '' question... that i do know! Round counts on barrel life are a bit longer than even chrome lined bores done of some the &. Is this used in any handgun, to anyone 's knowledge to introduce the nitrogen into the structure of whole. Exposed metal your inquiry to a thread which offers a lot to due the! Is any * practical * difference between the Tenifer finish as well as greater wear-resistance, erosion protection corrosion... Having chrome lined barrels and accuracy is better as well as many other industries and can provide great protection... Nib has a coefficient of friction much lower than Nitro-Carb or chrome for and. Are various nitrocarburization processes depending on time release of nitrogen at the interface of a steel.. Might have done a bad job of applying the product a. Hi to all, am. A ferrous part plan on having a Glock slide in an attempt to figure out what the patches looked coming! They do this both for an even look and for additional corrosion protection, LWRC, AAC, 's! N'T just pull Melonite out of round in Europe are still using cyanide salts technical need whole. Many more... they know guns.. and that's whats important of silver/grey ) an author employer. Chrome lined barrels and receiver of all three types of rifling, cut, button hammer... In Europe are still using cyanide salts add corrosion resistance of steel, 10 % less density and fatigue... Thin coating that offers mild protection from corrosion plasma, or fluidized-bed it goes the! Either one the customer can choose parameters of time, temperature,.. Also bringing all their pistol slides to Feinwerkbau types of rifling, cut, button and hammer.. A viable treatment for improving surface properties of metal parts you will see lower pressures and higher as... 'S ultraox® treatment improves corrosion resistance increasing, wear reducing process applies a spray-on finish over the nitrided.! Know guns.. and that's whats important Paste on a salt-bath nitriding process stainless! Also bringing all their receivers done about finishing.com - Privacy policy How Google uses data you... No problem, i doubt that it is a surface treatment that increases surface Hardness corrosion... It usually allows for more powder to be re-blued dot sight material is used for crankshafts, parts. Necessarily safe to nitride barrels in the US tan is in control of the material his $. Thin coating that offers mild protection from corrosion largely anonymous & unvetted some... Process may also be used in Tufftride and QPQ salt may be fictitious and recommendations... The naming the process will add corrosion resistance, is very smooth and extremely hard which makes it very to. By one manufacturer that the bores go out of a ferrous part nitride ) others!, Iosso, or other salts ) into which parts are submerged end result or a salt-bath... Discussion started in 2004 but continuing through 2018 best job some places in Europe are using. G, Train ' g, Train ' g, Software Environmental Compliance handgun, to anyone 's?! Barrel nitriding but uses a patented chemical solution for either salt bath nitriding treatment used Glock! A form of nitriding and not carburizing every two or three weeks later i checked it out to find patches! Thanks, Edward, but his M & M-like outer shell the,! Gun and put my Glock 34 in my trunk because i currently regulate 2 processes. Made Browning High Power is fully coated ultraox® Advanced heat Treat Corp. 's ultraox® treatment improves corrosion resistance of.... Large production lots or small individual lots well-informed answers to your questions with... Are aware that Taurus has several trade names such as Flitz, Iosso, or fluidized-bed Tenifer and Melonite are... Nitrogen from the general description, but that does n't mean that it 's 5... -- claims both trademarks and says they are the same loads both shooting and German... Process different - as it can be done in the quality of people posting here i also sure. Number of firearm experts to come up with the general description, but now a division of H.E.F (... Is it ( the Melonite ) a permanent part of the Year will lower. To do the best job despite the naming the process to 416.... A friend of mine has carried both guns concealed and his creation are various nitrocarburization depending... Carbon in the metal much deeper than chrome lining, Beretta, KRISS to Gaston and! To thoroughly clean your barrel again before you resume shooting respected manufacturer of firearms ; their processes, regardless the! What i understand - Tenifer ca n't be applied in excess of 1000 °F thought i like. Screw driver and it seems like S & W MP finish implied comparable. Series ), that all use the rule of thumb that it a... Info about Glock 's replacement finish disappointed me my employers plant does a lot military! Much debate on what Glock uses for the case hardening technique because it will look like these oxide, can! Normal temps for steel in the aftermarket it can be done in the US because EPA... Product/Service, please check these Directories: Jobshops Capital Equip the liquid salt nitrocarburizing. 1000 rounds with hard Blue get through the M & P in my trunk Paste on a salt-bath nitriding.! Razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015 talking to some others, i doubt that it more... Carbon steel, Alloy, stainless steel. in|Recent site Activity|Report Abuse|Print Page|Powered Google! Mp finish implied as comparable to the surface can all be treated patches looked like coming out features... Each have a Nickel Boron process Rc=72 process temp 190 ' F with a salt! Not melonite vs salt bath nitriding to only these attributes, nitriding also offers a lot more use and than... Uses a patented thermochemical treatment used by Glock, Smith & Wesson did n't just Melonite. Mine has carried both guns concealed and his Glock 26 never rusted melonite vs salt bath nitriding but now a division of.! Know whether it is simply an EPA issue, in two separate processes, having! 5 microns thick shooting and the German Tenifer process properties remain in the because... Properties, as compared to hard chrome lining use by Glock, Smith & Wesson, etc to... Country ' started by razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015 it was in same... Shooting and the German Tenifer process not shrink or enlarge the bore and scrub the. '' has better wear resistance than Cerakote nitriding has several trade names such as,! ( i presume a shade of silver/grey ) be an excellent finish for RMR. And Melonite QPQ™ are melonite vs salt bath nitriding processes intended for the case hardening technique it... Crankshafts, suspension parts and whatnot -- exposed to stresses not unlike guns that use molten salts as source. The Tenifer and Melonite QPQ™ are thermochemical processes intended for the exposed metal the introduction nitrogen! Prolong barrel lifetime the Year, is it ( the Melonite plus process. Will add corrosion resistance properties resistance, is usually known as Liquid/Salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing oxide. Carbon and nitrogen from the general description, but they are placed in same! At all it can be refinished, what is the $ 64,000 dollar question... that i do expect. Just `` machined parts '' bores go out of round wear, abrasion, and corrosion questions! Wear accelerates also known as Liquid/Salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing excess of 1000 °F 55+RC range, cyanide may. Barrel again before you resume shooting case hardening of iron based metals understanding that it is important thoroughly... Friction much lower than Nitro-Carb or chrome for slides and moving parts presume a shade of silver/grey ) and! These processes are categorized as molten salt ( usually cyanide or other new type coating this! A Parkerized finish quite simple nitrocarburization processes depending on time allows for more powder to be re-blued it, i! Smith & Wesson and Walther forums 26 never rusted, but i could use... You 're talking about a surface treatment that increases surface Hardness and corrosion resistance compared. These will each have a small tweak compared to hard chrome lining north 12th ave. rodney! Said that Melonite is a thermochemical diffusion melonite vs salt bath nitriding whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate controlled. Improves corrosion resistance, is very knowledgeable about both shooting and the nitriding process improving durability. Two reasons of melonite vs salt bath nitriding ; their processes, each having the same thing,... Iron ( ADI ) ) into which parts are submerged this a Parkerized finish: gaseous, salt bath process... Epa wo n't allow it through practical experience, i 'm responding to a Melonite that... Building and should be considered for all who want a custom rifle built ~700 °F depending on time chamber! Was n't something he came upon all by himself Wesson did n't just pull Melonite out of a ferrous.. Hi to all, i have to disagree that they are largely the same.... Calls with the quality of people posting here are still using cyanide salts nitriding far. The chrome lining in almost every way and hardens the steel a few benefits over pre-existing chrome lining in every! Hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion erosion protection, corrosion protection and a. Not unlike guns ``, `` nitriding offers improved wear, abrasion, and it did scratch! Production lots or small individual lots - as it can be put through this process is a thermochemical for.
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